Particularly worrying is the situation in Marchwood because before First launched the 11, Bluestar provided no commercial service and residents were reliant on what Hampshire County Council was prepared to subsidise. That meant no buses in the evenings or on Sundays, a situation which could well now return.
Last time that happened, the Campaign for Better Transport commissioned this study to document the impact.
For some of the background on Marchwood, see my previous posts and also this post on the Omnibuses blog.
Now Bluestar have won this particular battle, the ball is in their court.
Hilarious! Now will first sack the idiot who engineered this introduction? Bluestar will wait for a sensible time, before cutting all the shorter 8 route services, I am sure. Normality and common sense prevailed, in the end! Use it or lose it, good people of Marchwood!
ReplyDeleteWhy should anyone at First be sacked? They tried a new route (saved tax payers lots of money in the process) and withdrawn it when faced with overwhelming aggression by the incumbent. Perhaps someone at Bluestar will be sacked when the Competition people investigate their shenanigans after all not the first time they done it, beep beep!
DeleteThe reason the 11 failed was due to a bad timetable running 3 minutes after the Bluestar 8. If the 11 was running 3 minutes before the 8, the 11 would have had much better passenger numbers. And let's not forget cheaper prices.
ReplyDeleteFirst better do something if they want the X2 to be viable, perhaps divert it via Shirley, that would pick up more passengers.
Next up; Bluestar 16. I don't think this is doing as bad as people say.
And finally on Wakefield Road Townhill Park there had been Xelabus X22 stickers on the bus stops, another route that will be gone after about a month of running
Whats an X22? Another Xelabus failure? I can't keep up!
DeleteFirst are also looking to terminate the contract for the Hythe local buses as well. Hopefully these wont go back to Bluestar and maybe give another operator a chance to bring some competition to the Waterside.
ReplyDeleteThe green buses company maybe?
Deleteif its xelabus your speaking of they probably wont be around much longer severe financial problems so im told
DeleteOh & not to Xelabus othewise it wont last longer than a few weeks
ReplyDeleteFirst have been the perfect company in this 'act of de-regulation'. They put on their commercial 11 and timed it to be 30 minutes away from the then tendered BlueStar 8, effectively offering passengers double the level of service and a new Sunday service.
ReplyDeleteWhen HCC decided not to award a tender, the residents of Marchwood would still have had the 11 and without any BlueStar 8s it may well have grown to be commercially sustainable, and still have provided a better service than previously offered by BlueStar with public money.
BlueStar are the one's who decided to operate 3 minutes in front of First, and they are the ones who will almost certainly be back asking for public money to support an inferior service in a few months.
Spot on. Bluestar have no genuine interest in serving the people of Marchwood and in a couple of months their services will be virtually non-existent. At least First tried to play fair and space their buses equally, but Bluestar had to be the bully boys of the playground once again (as was seen with the Beep Bus debacle a few years ago)
DeleteI think this is a real shame, and demonstrates why privatisation in the bus industry doesn't work. Bluestar only agree to serve Marchwood if they don't have to pay from their own pockets, but when somebody else turns round and offers to, all of a sudden it becomes "theirs" that they have to protect. If it wasn't worth the effort in the first place, why bother? Why not sit back and let First see for themselves how financially unviable it is without intervention.
This sort of anti-competitive behaviour should really be clamped down upon because at the end of the day, nobody really benefits and the customers are always made worse off for it.
Was running three minutes before a rival never resorted to before deregulation?
ReplyDeleteCan no pressure be put on government and its agencies to prevent such obvious malpractice that gains nothing for the general public?
Or maybe there is some hypocracy that prevents such pressure, seeing that the use of the ruse might come in handy some time, if a rival appears.
It's a shame First just replicated the Blue star route. They could have tried something more imaginative, such as running through Marchwood by Normandy Way so closer to Industrial Parks and houses, or fast into Southampton or even slower but passing General Hospital.
ReplyDeleteI am worried about the probable degradation of the Bluestar service, it will have a negative impact on me.
Unfortunately the bus companies don't seem to allow for the fact, that if you are a bus user and the service gets withdrawn you have to change your life, e.g. give up your job, cancel social life etc.. Should they restart the service then the regular trade is gone, people may find it useful but the dependency is no longer there.
Let's face it who can cope with being dependant on a company whose policies lead to the unreliability of Bluestar.
Please Bluestar please prove my expectations wrong.
All they had to of done is to re-time the 11 and make it every half hours for example leaves at **45 and **15 also allowing the £4.20 day rider to do complete route although £5 is a bargain for day rider though.
DeleteI was wrong, thank you Blue Star
DeleteHaving just visited this site again (and not that often) I just wish to say reading the comments about my company to put a few facts straight. Xelabus is NOT in any way having financial issues. The bank is very healthy and the company is in a strong position. We are NOT interested in the Waterside area. Finally those of you have noted our stickers on bus stops in Southampton will be interested to know that the Tesco Bursledon bus has numbered routes from this week. I hope that answers those who have mentioned my company on here.
ReplyDeleteTo all the people expressing wild theories on here-STOP IT!
ReplyDeleteBluestar were struggling to make sufficient profit on the 8 route, so cut it back to a service upon which they could survive and make PROFIT. When First came onto the route, it made Bluestars PROFIT evaporate. First did not do it to save the taxpayer money. They did it to try to make a PROFIT. Bluestar felt that they would lose any opportunity to make any PROFIT on the route, if they allowed First to encroach on a traditional Bluestar route, so decided to throw away all PROFIT in the short term, by losing money and doubling their service. This has worked and First have given up. Bluestar will now be very likely (after a sensible notice period) to return the service to a level at which they can make a PROFIT.
When will posters on here wake up, and realize that we are no longer in the nationalised era? If any bus operator cannot make a profit, with or without a subsidy, the route will be withdrawn. All bus operators have to make a profit, or they dont exist at all. They are all run as businesses these days, not charity organisations, for a handful of hard done by travellers! As someone said earlier, USE IT OR LOSE IT. There is simply no malpractice here, its just business sense. How could a comparitively small group like Go-Ahead, bully a massive operator like First? Simple answer is , they couldnt! They have just been clever and used good business judgement, unlike First who gambled on the wrong route.....
Anon at 1513 - No running 3 mins in front of another operator would not be permitted pre-deregulation. All route licences were approved on basis of passenger need.
ReplyDeleteAnon at 0100 - Bluestar are certainly aggressors in that they have now doubled the service on a route that they previously required a large subsidy to operate. One of the less attractive results of deregulation where customers in Marchwood are being poorly treated in defence of the larger area of Totton and Waterside.
Oh please, just stop it! How can Bluestar possibly be seen as the aggressor? They defended, for a short time, to block the aggressive moves of First. Yes, they doubled their service, to make sure that First could not gain a foothold. Its just business. Customers in Marchwood will get the service that their very low patronage deserves, not the artificially high service that they enjoyed during a spat between two operators.
DeleteFirst might have been the aggressor in this instance, but surely if they really wanted to drain Bluestar of their profits they'd have timed their buses to run 3 minutes before Bluestar's, meaning a counter-attack from them would have little effect. They might have made a wrong judgment, thinking there was more potential in Marchwood than there actually was, but they could certainly have acted much more aggressively than they did.
ReplyDeleteAlso, given Bluestar's track record it's easy to think that they would be the aggressive party, given their appalling behaviour towards Velvet with their 'Beep Bus'. Getting rid of the B entirely at first because it wasn't making them PROFITS, fair enough. That makes business sense. By getting rid of the route completely they are relinquishing any interest in it, so the argument of defending their territory doesn't apply. More recently, the 16 is perhaps a far more obvious example of aggressive behaviour from them. A blatant attack on an area already saturated with First buses, and clearly an area where demand is already sufficiently satisfied, and the profits to be made (if any) are most probably far too small for a big company like Bluestar to bother with. I think that all this proves that Bluestar aren't above anti-competitive behaviour when it comes to operating their business.
Obviously bus companies only operate to make a profit, they're not charities. But I genuinely cannot see the sense from a business perspective in Bluestar's attacks on First with the 16 and the rerouted 3. Several months on, and neither of these routes have had any sort of major impact; the 3 has caused such little damage to First's profits from Peartree Avenue and Woolston that they've not even bothered defending it. Great business sense from Bluestar there!
First announced their timings, and Bluestar amended theirs to counter Firsts aggression. If First had then re-timed, Bluestar would have reacted again. First were the aggressor and Bluestar defended very cleverly.
DeleteBluestar at no point withdrew from the 8 route. They cut it back to a level which the custom demanded, in order to remain profitable. Bluestar also launched the 16, as a counter to Firsts aggression on the 8 route. Interestingly, they have not announced any changes to the 16 (see below), nor the re-routed 3, indicating that they are building custom there, and not losing money. You can certainly bet that Bluestar are not against anti-competitive behaviour, wherever they are threatened!
The First 8 does not serve Townhill Park, only along Townhill Way. I guess you meant the 2 and 7
DeleteI agreed that First were the aggressors in the Marchwood battle, I just said that because they made the opening move, they had the option to time their buses immediately before Bluestar in an effort to steal as many customers as possible from them, but for whatever reason they didn't. First's aggression could have been far worse than it actually was.
DeleteDespite not announcing any changes (as of yet) to the 16 and 3, this doesn't necessarily mean that they're generating custom on these routes, and I would argue that the reasons why these haven't been changed now are more down to an act of saving face rather than because they're proving successful. Changing them now would be an admittance of poor judgment on their part and given that they've just defeated First in Marchwood, this defeat would lose all significance. I know it's all about what's profitable and what's not at the end of the day, but they need to remain a threat to their competitors, and this carries a lot of weight, and is worth making a temporary loss if it means that they keep First worried. I expect there'll be major changes to these two routes within the next couple of months.
With regard to the 3, I reiterate what I said initially; if the 3 is doing well through Peartree Avenue and Woolston, why hasn't it prompted any defensive actions from First? The 3 is a shadow of its former self and I imagine that it's now one of Bluestar's least lucrative routes, and one of their lowest priorities, especially since Velvet stepped in with the A. Therefore, what damage can re-routing it do? It's been in constant decline for the last couple of years and there's not a lot they can now do to rescue it, so where's the harm in using it as fodder to try and snatch the odd First customer? Having seen passenger numbers down that way, I seriously doubt that they're making any sort of profit, nor do they particularly expect to. It's more just a thinly-veiled attack to try and intimidate First using existing resources that they have little interest in anyways.
I knew it would never last, the First bus only took over the Waterside route as Bluestar was dropping the number 8, but then they became the bully boys as always and saw off the number 11, and very soon we will again see them cut the number 8, they seem to have something against the number 8 route, they don't want it but object when another company steps in.The First bus should have done something completely different, we really need a bus going to the General hospital, why can we not have one going through Shirley? come back First bus and try that, Bluestar want it all their own way, as soon as they saw off the First bus they put up the bus fares knowing they have no competition on the Waterside, they charge the same fare for a few local stops as they do to Southampton. Fares on the First bus are much more reasonable.
DeleteToday on VOSA:-
ReplyDeletePH0005939/155 - SOLENT BLUE LINE LIMITED, BARTON PARK INDUSTRIAL ESTATE, CHICKENHALL LANE, EASTLEIGH, SO50 6RR
Variation Accepted: Operating between Southampton ( West Quay ) and Langley ( Kings Road ) given service number 9/N9 effective from 02-Jun-2013. To amend Route, Start & Finish Point and Timetable.
PH0005939/156 - SOLENT BLUE LINE LIMITED, BARTON PARK INDUSTRIAL ESTATE, CHICKENHALL LANE, EASTLEIGH, SO50 6RR
Variation Accepted: Operating between Southampton (West Quay) and Calshot Beach given service number 8 effective from 02-Jun-2013. To amend Timetable.
Isn't that a suprise (not!)
No surprise at all..... The 9 variation is merely to satisfy the protesters at Kings Ride, and minor timetable issues. We await the timetable revisions on the 8 route. I suspect they wont cut it back as much as some are predicting, but its bound to be fairly severe to return it to profit.
DeleteThe 8 and 9 revisions are actually improvements and no service reductions at all and are now on the website. A VERY pleasant surprise. Good bye First and good riddance..Southampton revamp unravelling? Plymouth Citybus also have run them out of the cash cow of Ivybridge too. Hopefully the beginning of the end of their bus ops nationwide as they are truly awful
ReplyDeleteHmmm funny definition of improvements you have, more like reliability tweaks. I somehow think it's nothing like the beginning of the end for First to suggest it is laughable!
ReplyDeleteIf you actually read the article there are service extensions and none of the cuts everyone was worried about but why let the facts get in the way! It is pretty sad that First can't even find buyers for many of their areas as they've run them into the ground so much and as for Soton...the new netwrk has hardly proved to be a huge success and neither has Pompey.
ReplyDelete"Monday to Friday 0650 service from Hythe will depart from Fawley at 0628 to provide an extra morning journey.
The Bluestar 8 Southampton to Calshot 1430 service will divert through Applemore College and will depart from the college at 1523 on school days ONLY."
and
"All journeys will be re-routed to terminate at Langley Farm and will no longer serve Kings Ride.
The 0710 and 0730 Monday to Friday Bluestar 9 journeys from Langley will now start at Fawley to provide two extra services into Southampton.
The 1710 and 1740 Monday to Friday Bluestar 9 services from Southampton will now run to Fawley and NOT Langley.
The 2309 Monday and Saturday Service from Langley will now be extended and will terminate at Rushington roundabout."
If the new first network has been so unsuccessful then why did Bluestar react in the way they did. Remember, Bluestar registered to go to Townhill Park, before First registered to go to Marchwood (this fact seems to be frequently forgotten or reversed). Seems to me that the new first network seems to have had an effect on Bluestar otherwise they (Bluestar) would have not made the incursion into Townhill Park.
ReplyDeleteBluestar were informed of the 11 route through Marchwood by the council, as they had to be given notice of the withdrawal of the subsidy. Bluestar then registered the 16 route, in the full and certain knowledge that the 11 was starting. Bluestar continue to build on the 16 route, and show no sign of reversing their decision. The 11 will be history after 26th of May! It was a desperate measure by First, to try to create an expansion. It failed!
DeleteThe Bluestar 16 route had been in the planning for a very long time, that and a few other routes were first drawn up months ago. The start of the 16 route was a delayed response to the new First network which has been hurting Bluestar badly, nothing to do with the First 11. I hear changes are proposed for the 16 in a last ditch attempt to make the route work as it doesnt carry more than 6 on most trips and hardly made a dent into First passenger numbers.
DeleteThe above is complete nonsense. The "new" First network did nothing but damage First. Bluestar had all sorts of contingency plans in place, but only chose to use the 16 as a direct response to Firsts 11 route. Interestingly, the 11 has all but gone, but the 16 is exactly where Bluestar budgets predicted that it would be at this point, and is planned to stay long term. Any new route needs at least 3 years to properly establish, which is the current plan. Long term are the keywords. First (apart from choosing the wrong route), need to understand that concept, instead of attempting massive changes all at once, which undoubtedly did lots of harm to them. The management at First looks desperate, whilst the management at Bluestar appears firm and totally in control of where their business is positively heading.
DeleteTotally disagree about First network - it was a good effort at improvements after several years of getting it badly wrong. Surprised they have not tweaked the dodgy bits but that probably means they are making good profit !
DeleteBluestar now realise the 16 was the wrong area to target but it would be embarrassing to just scrap it - I predict reduced to every 30 mins and diverted to Westward Road to replace the P1.
I suspect that First are making very little profit in Southampton. The cost of their depot alone weighs them down. The network changes were nothing short of desperation, after several years of getting it wrong.
DeleteBluestar have budgeted for the 16 to make a loss for the first 3 years, whilst it establishes itself, so its not a concern at all. I think it very unlikely to divert via Westwood Rd, as this would play into council hands. The council will no longer give a subsidy, so Bluestar will no longer give a service there!
Loving the posts from the head of pr from the Bluestar propaganda ministry!
DeleteAs has been mentioned countless times on here, the 16 was a knee-jerk response to First's intended move into Marchwood and Hythe. First were entering Bluestar territory, so Bluestar responded by entering into First territory. Simple as that. A route that virtually replicates an existing one is not going to be a money-maker in the short-term or the long-term, and Bluestar surely wouldn't be so foolish as to plan 3 years in advance for a bus service for which no real gap in the market exists. Also, if the 16 was meant to be a long-term investment by Bluestar to try and move their business forward, how can the re-routing of the 3 through Woolston be explained? Neither of these routes are major priorities for Bluestar; they're just attacks in a futile bus war where they're trying to damage and enrile First by snatching the odd customer from them.
DeleteThe 16 has grown about as much as it can now. Everyone knows about it and where it goes, and they're still not choosing to use it. The best thing Bluestar can do now that First have retreated is do the same and use the surplus resources somewhere where they're more likely to be utilised.
How true from the Bluestar publicity team at 0154 - Bluestar will probably not put the 16 through Westwood Road because it would benefit the passengers and save the council money ! They miss the point that it would put more money into the 16 !
DeleteAs already stated, Bluestar have budgeted for a loss on the 16 for the first 3 years. They would certainly not route it to replace the P1, as that would tell the council that the subsidy was not needed! To serve Westwood Rd, it certainly is needed, and rerouting the 16 would not add any value or revenue to the 16 route. The 16 will continue to grow, and ultimately will turn a decent profit with minor tweaks here and there. The 3 reroute was an attack on First without any doubt. It has had some success, and improved revenues. Thats the way Bluestar operate, by gently easing up profits and revenues, by minor changes here and there, rather than massive revamps, which confuse and annoy the travelling public.
DeleteAll in your own very humble opinion !
DeleteIf Bluestar is budgeting to make a loss for 3 years on service 16 then they need to re examine competition law.
DeleteWhat company would make a 3 year budget allowing for a loss on a route where demand is low because the areas it serves are saturated with buses already? It's simply illogical from a business sense. The 16 cannot grow much more than it has. I think it's reached its peak now. The areas it serves either have so many buses that it'll only ever pick up the odd few for whom it happens to be the first bus to turn up for (which considering the vast amount of First buses there are will not be often), and the unique areas it serves have only ever had heavily subsidised services in the past because there was never any real profit to be gained from them commercially, hence why they were ditched originally. Therefore, forecasting a decent profit to be made in the far future is based on nothing but wild optimism and fantasism. Also, improved revenues on the 3? Yes I'm sure the good folk of Hedge End are overjoyed by what Bluestar offer now; a service slowly dwindled from 3 buses an hour to just one bus an hour that following the reroute doesn't even provide a direct service to Southampton, simply because they want to annoy their rivals and snatch the odd customer elsewhere. The idea that the 3 is seeing improved revenues is amusing to say the least. There's absolutely no evidence or logical reasoning as to why they would be.
DeleteTake it from me as a driver for BS (very apt name!) the 16 is a waste of time and management know it but daren't lose face over it, the 8 will get axed as soon as Mr Wills remembers we actually exist over here and as for the 3 rerouting - well what can I say. Not only has it utterly failed to grab passengers from First, but its LOST the passengers it had from Northam and St Marys who were still trying catch it weeks after the change as BS in their usual infinite wisdom didn't bother to tell the people who pay their wages . . . I did a duty that was mostly 3's last week and took the grand sum of 35 quid all night!! And given how embarressingly expensive our fares are, that equates to about ten passengers! And the nightstar services that should be real moneyspinners are empty most of the time so no doubt will be axed sooner rather than later!! Soon as I can find alternative employment I will be off because BS are beyond a joke now - Unilink is all they care about, to the extent of cutting WHOLE duties of Bluestar work to put the driver onto Unilink work and they won't even pay the Unilink rate of pay when you do it!!! So to those rose tinted spectacle wearing people on here including what is obviously BS management then please just grow up and live in the real world!! And no I'm no fan of First and their way of working either!!!
DeleteThe new network has done well hence why First have invested 10 new vehicles last year in Southampton and 60 new vehicles across Southampton and Portsmouth to be delivered this year, that's about £8-9 million investment so hardly a failing business!
ReplyDeleteYou are right. Its not a failing business, however the First fleet is so overdue investment, that a few new buses is hardly an indication that all is well..... Their repaint programme seems to indicate that many older vehicles are expected to remain on our streets for a very long time yet. Why else would they be repainting such old vehicles?
DeleteYour right the fleet is overdue investment but 60 new vehicles is not "a few new buses" its about 20% of the fleet replaced in one year - thats much more than "a few".
DeleteAnything pre 2000 needs replacing by 2017 at the latest when DDA comes into effect, a few R reg darts have been repainted but they need to be withdrawn by end of 2015, less than 3 years away. I don't think you can read anything into older vehicles getting repainted meaning they are staying a "very long time".
On the basis that 50 per cent of the new buses are heading to the eastern end of the M27, are you telling me that 30 buses is 20 per cent of Firsts Southampton fleet? Wow, I thought they were much bigger in Southampton than that? That would surely make Bluestar bigger than First in Southampton?
DeleteMore like a last ditch attempt to save the rebrand...if it was Stagecoach the new buses would have arrived as part of the network rebrand but that sort of joined up thinking just is not First. Bluestar reacted to protect their revenue and passengers reacted by sticking with them realising First were never likely to stay around. Ivybridge is also a perfect example of what other companies can do when they take on First as Citybus have completely killed first in a matter of months and good for them as really all they did was identify an area where First had downgraded both the service and bus quality and attack it with high quality buses and drivers. One thing First have never learnt is that old dirty buses with unfriendly driver just run off passengers. Stagecoach started that way then soon learnt and now we have things like Stagecoach Gold and also proper route branding and new buses or at least well presented older buses. Fingers crossed First leave for good and concentrate on continuing screwing up First Capital Connect.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what First Capital Connect has to do with Southampton bus updates but whilst we're talking rail franchises the commuters of Portsmouth regard Stagecoach as screwing up their travel to London since 1996, first with mass driver redundancies now running the route with suburban trains but you won't care as your obviously in the St Brian club.
ReplyDeleteIvybridge is hardly fortune and glory so unsurprising one operator has pulled out, the town was never going to be big enough for two.
ReplyDeleteFew bus operators launch new networks with new fleets of buses, Bluestar didn't when they revamped most of their bus routes. I remember old Olypmians and Volvo B10's running the BS1, 2 and 3's before newer vehicles were cascaded in. Stagecoach rarely buy entirely new fleets when revamping networks either. As for Stagecoach gold its on something like 4 bus routes in the country not whole cities, First had brand new high spec vehicles delivered in time for the Eclipse in Fareham which is of similar quality to Stagecoach gold.
I travel regularly around Southampton on all operators, yesterday I happened to travel on First 2A, driver was friendly, bus was 10 years old but recently repainted and very clean inside. To be honest since moving depots First have really upped their game with cleaning and most of the time they tend to be the cleanest buses in the city and the drivers are usually friendly too! In fact I find the majority of drivers from all companies friendly and have never had a real problem with any of them.