First held a 'Meet the Manager' session on their Facebook page on Tuesday. Many people asked about the cuts in services to Sholing, Merry Oak, Harefield and Townhill Park, but they all got the same answer: that those services are not used by enough full fare-paying passengers. It's an interesting choice of words and accurately highlights several problems facing all bus companies in Britain outside London:
- Fewer people are travelling by bus
- A higher proportion of those still travelling by bus are pensioners on free passes
- Bus companies are not being adequately reimbursed by the government for the cost of transporting pensioners. The costs are therefore being picked up by taxpayers and full fare-paying passengers through higher fares, which in turn deter more full fare-paying passengers
- In the current system, all bus companies exist to make a profit. If they lose money on a route and local councils are unwilling or unable to subsidise it, they are free to cut that route.
When the council ran the city's buses, they had a duty to make sure that all areas of the city were connected with a reasonable service. Now nobody has that duty. First's only duty is to make money for its shareholders. The council can subsidise extra routes to fill in the gap in the commercial bus network, but it has no legal obligation to do so. Therefore we are now seeing services being drastically cut in large areas of Southampton.
With the new First 10 set to duplicate the eastern half of Bluestar 18, the boys in blue aren't taking it lying down. They've registered a timetable change for the 18 from 21st September (in addition to the change already scheduled for 1st Sep), details of which are still to be revealed, but it's highly likely that a frequency boost is on the cards. All Unilink routes also get new timetables from the same date.
Some Stagecoach routes linking our region with Winchester have new timetables from 30th August. See them at these links: 46, 66, 69.
You wouldn`t expect Bluestar not to fight their patch!
ReplyDeleteBluestar 18`s new 1st Sept timetable is now available!It can be viewed on the Traveline southwest site now.
ReplyDeleteMost of the other altered timetables can be found on Bluestar`s website!
DeleteIn the main the timetable for the 18 is the same as now at a 7/8 min frequency from 1 September
ReplyDeleteBut there`s changes planned for 21 Sept as well!
DeleteI don't think you can correlate the number of comments on the last blog to how many users are affected by the changes. There is a significant number of people who have commented on here don't even live in the city or use the buses in the city. I am not saying people are not affected by the changes but I think you will find it is lower than perceived.
ReplyDeleteIt makes you laugh all of it what comes out from the First management-A time back they said they were taking the 13 out of running through Peartree Avenue between Woolston and Bitterne and sending it via Bishop's Road and Merryoak to try to make it more viable-With this change they are now taking it out of Bishop's Road and Merryoak and sending it back through Peartree Avenue where they said before it wasn't viable-As they no longer think Harefield is viable hence the cut from 3 per hour to 1,surely they make the situation worse by running via Peartree Avenue again-The 8 is a joke-It ran originaly via Northam to Bitterne,then it was switched to run via Woolston, Peartree Avenue to Bitterne Monday to Saturday and via Woolston, Bishops Road and Merryoak to Bitterne on Sundays-Now it's going back via Northam once again-It had Sundays a 30 minute service which recently was reduced to hourly,and still will be, but now with the change Bishops Road and Merryoak will have no buses at all on Sundays-This crazy new 9 will run half hourly between Montague Avenue/Butts Road and City but from Bitterne will now operate via Merryoak,Bishops Road and Woolston to City making a longer journey for Montague Avenue/Butts Road customers-In my view it's quite clear that in the end all First want operating in Southampton are their beloved red routes, and with the reduction in frequencies in many areas, or the service withdrawn in some instances,this is a precursor to the future withdrawel completely of service 9 and 13-All these areas once had good traffic and I accept things change,but where First have continually changed routes in the area, it is they that have quickened the decline-With this change the decline will further hasten-It's one of the worse changes I have ever noted in the City and even to the west it's now started with reductions to the 1 and 12 services-Under the new service changes on their website people have asked how to get from Midanbury to Bitterne as there will no longer be any service, as poor loadings by their reconning-At present you can do the journey in about 10 minutes or so-They I note told one person in the future to use the 8 minute frequency service 7 to City and change to the new 7/8 minute frequency 10-The 7 takes about 30 minutes to City then about 18 minutes on the 10-Without waiting in the City to change from 7 to 10 a previous 10 minute journey as you can see will take 48 minutes-Elsewhere they have stated that they are trying to encourage more people to use the bus, which is true if you are fortunate enough to live on a red route,but not if you live in Harefield,Merryoak,Peartree,Itchen or the Butts Road area of Sholing-How sad things are getting-Still if you live at the Beauworth Avenue end of Harefield you will have an extra service from the stop in West End road operated by Xelabus into City via Bitterne and Northam service X10, and also at the Sunningdale Gardens end of Harefield by walking to the stop on the main Bitterne Road East by Mon Crescent to City via Bitterne and Northam service X11 operated by Xelabus-Extra Xelabus journeys also serving all of Harefield on Mondays,Wednesdays and Fridays to/from Bitterne on their X14-So that's a bit of help to those in the area under the circumstances.
ReplyDeleteXelabus X10 just replaces the Brijan on.7!Both First and Bluestar have got shareholders to please,but unlike First Bluestar don`t keep chopping and changing their routes every five mins.Mostly when Bluestar have a change it`s an improvement ,or a minor tweak.
DeleteMore than likely Bluestar have a stable management and a commitment to their customers, whereas it would seem the management at First change their minds every six months to a year,and have no commitment to their customers,unless they are fortunate enough to live on a red route. Although I note reference about concessionary pass holders affecting the routes that are being reduced or withdrawn,the routes that are not changed also carry high volumes of these ticket holders-In fact during the day the red 7 which I use quite frequently has nothing but these pass holders at times on it.In fact on quite a lot of routes without these people the bus would be empty.As usual it's politicians in the past that have caused the problems we experience today with the funding of the scheme.
DeleteWith the exception of the no.8,which BS said wasn`t worthy of a Sunday service,until First Appeared and offered just that!they have improved the services no end !Remember southampton to Winchester used to be every 30 mins?Well from Sept it will be every 15 mins!
DeleteMore could be done with Unllink`s U9,to provide a full daytime service between Bitterne Park and the general.
ReplyDeleteSo far as I can remember - it's over five years now since I retired - the U9 was established as a private hire between Townhill Park, Portswood, University and Taunton's College. It was then running only during Taunton's term time. Subsequently, and by popular request, it was extended to the General. Are Taunton's still paying for it, entirely or in part? Any extra services between Townhill Park, Bitterne Park and the General might well generate calls for contributions from the Council, and I'm sure we all know what the answer would be!
DeleteFact for you.The 18 is the only bus route to have kept it`s original route number,since buses were de-regulated in southampton in the mid 1980`s!
ReplyDeleteIn Southampton that is!Long live the 18!!
DeleteBack to the boring First Bashing. I assume all these people have submitted applications for an operators licence ?
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid where they keep changing things, they really rather leave themselves open to bashing-People will only except change, which has to happen at times, if they see the change as being positive.Yes they have made very positive changes in the last few years on some routes,plus they now have a very modern fleet of buses on most routes,but in certain areas people are not so happy.That's the way it goes
DeleteIf I could raise the £500k I would need to get it started I would but since I can't I will have to just criticise a decision that has been created by a series of poor decisions over the years by First. That is the sort of money it takes to set up a bus operation of even half-a-dozen buses these days, the days of a cheap start up with some bargain minis is long gone. About £50k for all the various O-license requirements (operators must have £7k + £3900 per additional bus allowance to be demonstrably available at all times to prove you are funded enough for lifes little issues), about £10k per bus, enough money to pay rent & wages during set up plus enough on-going money to cover running costs for up to 6 months until you start receiving much of your income (that through concessionary fares who generally take that long before they start paying out), it has been estimated that you would need somewhere in the region of £30k per bus to bridge that period. Of course most of this doesn't apply if you already have licenses and run bus services but you still need somewhere in the region of £300 per day per bus in income to break even (exact numbers will vary by operator & area around this figure depending upon each companies cost base).
DeleteIt would be incorrect to assume that all bus services outside of London are seeing falling passenger numbers (in fact London has been looking a little shaky lately), there are many growth stories over recent times and much of the reported slight drop in national ridership can be tied to the massive cuts in council funded services over the last couple of years with commercial services holding there own. If operators are more prepared to take a risk or two then many such enhancements are seeing growth in areas which previously looked weak (my employers have developed 2 services in a Home Counties commuter town from relatively low frequency minibus services to decent frequency well loaded new Enviro 200s - one now runs better than every 10-mins with routine full loads, the other now a 20-min each direction circular service which at its most recent enhancement produced 5% growth across the network of changed routes in the first month). First over the years got themselves in a cycle of decline driven by a reliance of basic stats with no room for local initiatives or 'gut-instinct' and it is looking increasingly like in many areas of the country they cannot escape their past. You wonder if the only chance left for First is to completely free the local managers and remove any vestige of corporate involvement but it may even be too late for that in some places.
How did The Three and CityRed become successful ?
DeleteIts very apparent when you look at areas where First op co's have new management that they're the ones innovating and trying new things, and getting stability and growth.
DeleteThe op co's where the same management remain in situ choose the path of risk aversion and safety continue their cycle of decline, cutting PVR each service change. In the end you run out of things to cut and your depot overheads are too high, so you shut the depot down.
Seems like First need to remove a lot of dead wood from somewhere in their H&D business. This level of continual chopping and changing masks other structural issues within First H&D. Someone clearly isn't very good in the commercial direction end of the business.
If you plan things properly and work to a sensible timescale to implement, you then don't have to return to the changes 6-8 weeks later and change it yet again.
Each time First Southampton does a change like this, it means new duties and rotas for their drivers. Imaging your working week being constantly altered with revised duties or your long weekend 6 weeks down the rota being taken off you because the company is changing the routes yet again? That'd make you want to leave and drive for someone else. How are First doing for drivers? Are they short of them? With direction and repeated changes like this, that'd come as no surprise.
Couple of observations: buses are run for the benefit of the customers and not the drivers. I'm not saying that the staff are not important, but you have to put the customer first. The business will need customers to survive. A business can pick and choose which markets it want to operate it then the rules of supply and demand take place.
DeleteI don quite understand your point about First being risk averse where managers have been in post some time. I would hardly say the new red 10 service is risk averse
You are right the new 10 is not risk adverse, its suicide. Putting that level of resource into a competitive attack, resourced by shafting other areas.
DeleteI predict major changes to the First network within two years when they try to extract themselves from this mess.
Depends on the definition of 'success' when you mention cityreds. Yes the 3 is busy, shame the same cannot said for the 2 or 7 which spend most of the day running around with no more than half a dozen on each trip. Of course these routes will become more "successful" after shafting the 1, 9 and 12 customers who will have no choice but travel on the 2, 3, 7 or 10 for part of their journey.
DeleteSo if First try a new route it is suicide but if they don't try new routes they are risk averse. I feel keyboard operators will want a network serving everywhere. Someone ha already said we want services linking all over the place. It's a shame some of these people are still reminiscing from 20 to 30 years ago. Can anyone tell me why all go south coast fares jump up massively when they leave an area where there are 2 or more bus operators.
DeleteFares outside of Southampton have always been higher than those within.You will also note that First fares do the same outside of the area,particularly higher in the Gosport and Fareham areas.If there was no Bluestar in Southampton their fares would be higher too,a present example being Weston,Sholing and Lordshill where in the main Bluestar don't at present operate.People reminice still about 20 to 30 years ago, because they were a lot younger and things were different and of course a much better bus network.In 20 to 30 years time the younger ones at present will reminice how good things were in about 2015 and what a good bus network they had, and so the cycle goes on through time..
DeleteFirst`s new no.6 timetable is now available on Traveline Southwest!
ReplyDeleteNice of them to put it on their own website first-not!
DeleteThe outgoing timetable for First 6 came into effect on 26 April 2015. Under that on the copy I have, it says "Valid to: 07/04/2018". And they wonder why people "bash" them when they issue works of fiction like this!
DeleteOne of the worse decisions I have ever noted in all the continual services changes in Southampton over the past few years,is the latest one in cutting off Bitterne shops to/from Midanbury/Townhill Park.Not only do workers employed in businesses in Bitterne use it to/from work,young mothers for shopping as well as others.I accept that at every 15 minutes the frequency was to much for most of the day,but 30 minute would have been just fine.To cut the area off completely from Bitterne is a sheer disgrace.I might add I'm just an ordinary traveller, and like a number of workers in Bitterne, have now been truly stuffed by this outfit known as First
DeleteNot First`s finest hour!I Am pretty sure some supporter of this useless firm will come on here and try to support them!
DeleteThere are some interesting words used in the quotation of what First's managers were saying, and our Moderator's summary of the funding arrangements is correct. I know of several firms which have ceased trading - some of them having been active for seventy or more years - because the reimbursement by their local Council is inadequate to cover costs. It might help if the legislation had prescribed the amount to be paid in terms of "X pence in the pound at the date the Act comes into force and rising by the rate of inflation thereafter", but it doesn't do that. I'll take the situation in Yorkshire as an example, and then apply it locally.
ReplyDeleteNorth Yorkshire County Council does not reimburse its local operators as much as the neighbouring authorities. Can it be right that a passenger from Leeds to Harrogate is worth more to the operator than that same passenger going home from Harrogate to Leeds? No, of course not, but that is the situation which exists. NYCC does not pay as much as WYPTE. From Skipton to Burnley, the same applies. Lancashire pays more than NYCC. Locally, can it be right that someone in, say, Romsey, is worth more to Blue Star or Wheelers when travelling into Southampton than when going home again? No.
The problem is that all passengers including the pass holders are seeing services reduced and are finding other ways of getting about. I, for instance, find that it is quicker to drive from Netley into Hedge End, do whatever transactions I want to do and drive home again, than wait for the first available bus on which I can use my old dodders' pass, and go into Southampton. If I must go into Southampton, I drive into Woolston and park there. If it's a nice day, I walk into the City Centre, otherwise I get the first available bus. Who's happy with that? What is the point of having a pass if using the car is the quicker and cheaper option? I am not a fan of First, with their constant changing of routes, but they, like other operators, are struggling with Council cuts.
It looks like whoever runs this blog has no expirence in running buses! The part stating "Expected increase in frequency" is likley to be complete rubbish! It would not make sense for Bluestar to alter their frequency for the 18 - Their resources would be better used on filling the large gaps left by First in the Sholing and Townhill Park/Bitterne.
ReplyDeleteI have worked in the industry for some 21 years now and have been involved in two so called "Bus wars" the first we won the second more recently we reached a deal with the other operator to which corridors each company will be given ( totaly illegal deal to make but we did it anyway! )
The guys at Bluestar have shown they are smart so I Expect the change for 21st Sep will be adding extra early and/or late buses. Their are so many "keyboard bus companies" around formed of people such as Phil Coley who spams everyone with useless info about stop flags and stupid opinions of how Bus companies "should be run". I have worked with him in the past and can honestly say he has no idea on how to run a MODERN bus company, He seams to forget the world has moved on by about 20 years!
As an impartial observer that's quite an aggressive and arrogant post. AFAIK the blog writer does indeed have no experience in running buses - nor does he profess to - and nor does he need to in order to provide this blog, which at no point pretends it is offering an insiders industry viewpoint. His comment that you so ridicule about increasing frequency does not explicitly say weekday daytime - so your expectation that they will be adding extra early/late buses really isn't that far from what he is saying.
DeleteMaybe a deep breath and count to ten before posting may help, expecially on a Saturday night...
Well this is Phil Coley here-If I note in my travels bus stop flag information or other out of date information then I post and inform the relevent people-The commentator sugests it's useless information,to which is correct,because as it's wrong,it's useless to any person waiting for a bus where it's displayed-The fact there is a change to the 18 from September 21st 2015, at present no one knows what it will be and Bluestar are not in the habbit of making rash decisions-As the commentator suggests, I like them feel that in the end it would be better for some operator to fill the gaps in where First have decided to withdraw or reduce services-I might add that I do move with the times although they feel I do not-I would not expect any bus company today to operate as they did 20 years ago or back beyond 20 years-The only comment I have made about frequency on any blog regarding the 18,is that I feel thats it's a pity that between 1800 and 2030 Mondays to Saturdays it's not every 20 minutes, then after this the present 30 minute frequency-As I live on the route I observe how most nights between 1800 and 2030 how well loaded the 18 is-I also have no objection to being criticised in how I feel,however I know people who have different opinions to myself on several matters but never on any blog would directly mention their name-Where at present bus routes operate I myself expect a high standard of information available to the public-In the main this is so where it's provided by the operator particularly by First,Uni-Link,Bluestar and Xelabus-It seems to fall down rather badly in Southampton, where the City Council provide the information in a corporate style that shows all operators that use a particular stop,this of course being just my opinion alone-I don't know who you are and I don't want too,but in future if you want to slate someone on any site refrain from using peoples names who you don't agree with and just post a reply about the opinion of the person who has posted-The comment also about who runs this blog has no experience in running buses just because you think you do is also out of order and just because you have worked in the industry for 21 years doesn't mean you are perhaps alway correct-PAC
DeleteQuite agree
DeletePhil Coley here-In answer to the commentator who seems it deemed necessary to mention a persons name in reply to that persons opinions I state the following-To state whoever runs this blog has no experience in running buses is arrogant in the outset-I post on sites where I find things not quite right,such as roadside information being incorrect-The commentator is quite correct in stating it's useless information,as if it's incorrect at any stop,it's useless to the person wanting to use a particular service-In the case of Bluestar 18 the only comment on any site I have made is too the fact I myself think it's a pity Mondays to Saturdays that between 1800 and 2030 the frequency wasn't every 20 minutes instead of the present 30 minutes-This view of mine and mine alone is based on viewing the present numbers travelling on the 30 minute service that passes where I live-The fact that any operator would be better employed in filling in gaps left by First changes in September in Southampton particularly in Townhill Park,Merryoak,Sholing I agree with-I'm well aware of how bus companies today have to be run and the constraints they are under,and that in no way could they be run as they were 20 years or more ago-I don't know who you are and I don't want too,but when you view sites and someone gives their opinion on a subject that you don't agree with,in your reply I don't think it's appropiate to mention someone specificaly by name-I in replies never mention a persons name even if I know who that person is-You state you have worked in the bus industry for 21 years,but that does not mean that you are always correct in getting things right-In Southampton the bus companies such as First,Bluestar,Uni-Link and Xelabus do an excelent job in publicity at bus stops which in my opinion and mine alone at present is let down by Southampton City Council corporate publicity provided for all operators,which I'm happy to see them provide,but just wish the format was larger in size for people to read-Any observation I make about publicity,and shall continue to do so, are to try to improve it for all bus users of which fortunetly there are still plenty-PAC
DeleteI agree with anon 0154 the purpose of this blog is purely enthusiast focused which is an angle it does well!
ReplyDeleteHowever I also agree with anon 0032 regarding the so called keyboard bus operators, If you ignore what is clearly a personal vendetta for this Coley guy his point does have some backing. Just take a look at the First Bus social media pages and you will see every other post is from an enthusiast asking some pointless question about fleet movements or new bus orders etc. In this respect I feel sorry for First as it is not their job to answer these type of questions!
I must admit I run buses in a completely different part of the country but from what I have seen Bluestar have the upper hand. They have also been a LOT smarter in their decision making. I expect they will register a couple of changes to fill gaps left by First Bus. Whether those gaps are worth filling are a whole different question.....
First are on Social media - it's a way of allowing people to be ask questions that are of interest to the person asking - does not have to be just about a specific route. Not pointless at all. It is First's job to answer questions - if they don't want to co-operate then they should say so!
ReplyDeleteFirst should be more like BS and not let people post stuff on their Facebook page and barely answer any comments posted on BS`s own posts!Instead asking people to e-mail their managers mailbox-then not replying!Or the good ole chesnut,that the message must have gone to the spam folder instead!Bluestar just fail really badly in this area of customer communication!
ReplyDeleteBe good to see a comparison Network map of First Southampton from the early 1990's to the most up to date First Southampton network map. Services are pretty no existent to the west and North of Southampton. Since the network has dwindled congestion in Southampton has got worse. Hardly any cross city routes to the the General Hospital and the area is heavily congested at rush hour mainly the NORTH cross city route.
ReplyDeleteThey need to bring back the no.4,which went City-Bitterne-Portswood-General hospital-Shirley then Millbrook!Fat chance of that happening though!That provided great connections,which sadly no longer exist,or will be dropped from Sept 6th.
ReplyDeleteThe new timetables for the First changes in Southampton from September 2015 are now displayed on their website.It should be interesting when the changes come into effect to note their website as to customer reaction
ReplyDeleteWonder how many realise that the no.12 will only run hourly on Suns,with no evening services?
DeleteMore than likely another future candidate for the chop
DeleteThat's ok,will fill up some of the empty running 2 buses
DeleteBluestar also like to ignore your private messages as well on their facebook page.
ReplyDeleteI've just heard a rumour that Bluestar are to stop running route 16 from 1st September. Can anyone confirm or deny that?
ReplyDeleteIt will have a new route, City - Northam - Bitterne - Townhill Park
DeleteWill no longer serve Bevois Valley, Portswood, St Denys or Cobden Avenue