Monday 22 October 2012

Velvet: C is for Cuts - Hiltingbury left high and dry

Velvet have announced that they will be withdrawing the commercial Mon-Sat daytime service on routes C1 and C2 from Monday 26th November.

The routes had been subsidised until the October cuts of last year, after which Velvet stepped in to keep the services running. They say however that the services have become unviable. The evening and Sunday journeys on route C1 are still subsidised by Hampshire County Council and will continue to be operated by Velvet.

The rumours are that Xelabus will run a replacement service between Eastleigh and Fryern Hill, but this will leave Hiltingbury high and dry. Xelabus do not currently accept the Solent Travelcard or Plusbus tickets, so when they take over, Eastleigh's public transport will be severely fragmented.

More as we get it.

46 comments:

  1. In all honesty the services haven't become unviable, they never really were viable in the first place. We needed to see continued passenger growth for them to get there - and we were always quite open with the local authorities about that and how marginal the routes were - but for a number of reasons, not least the appearance of a competitor, the growth stopped before the routes achieved viability.

    We understand that Xelabus will participate in Solent Travelcard from 26th November. Plusbus is a complete irrelevance - usage on the C is virtually nil (as distinct from the A where we do see some usage).

    No doubt the local authorities will announce their intentions for Hiltingbury in due course, but I can't somehow see it being left high and dry, and to suggest otherwise at this stage seems rather unnecessarily emotive.

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    1. Why didn't you choose to lower the level of service first, as it seems at least part of it can make money, as the new X7 seems to run a similar route for part of it. (Timetable: http://www.xelabus.info/UserImages/pdf/X7%20A6%20flyer%20Nov%202012.pdf )
      Surely you could've ran a service similar to the X7 with extensions to Hiltingbury every other journey?

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    2. With all respect, why do you (whoever you are) consider that the fact that Xelabus have registered this timetable automatically means that it is commercially viable? Do you believe they know the revenue better than we do? That would seem a bit perverse given that we have four years of detailed data and they have none! We do not judge that Xelabus's proposed X7 is commercially viable, but in a free market they are welcome to try it. Worth mentioning also that had we continued we would have been sharing the Velmore market with three Xelabuses per hour (2 x X5, 1 x X3) whereas they have a clear road, so in that respect they do have an advantage. However the long and short of it is that we no longer feel that there is any commercially viable solution, otherwise - quite obviously - we'd have registered it!

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    3. Sorry, I badly wrote that last reply (It was a bit rushed). I'm no fan of Xelabus and doubt the service will be successful. I meant to ask about why Velvet hadn't considered reducing the service to see if that worked first. I do agree that a route running with very little income (if any) can easily be affected by the slightest competition.
      It's a shame things worked out the way they have, but knowing Xelabus's record, it's possible the market may open up again. :)
      (Sorry again for the last comment, rereading it, even I think I was a poorly written comment)

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    4. No harm done, when you put it like that it's a perfectly fair question. The answer is quite simply that we know what the revenue and costs are now, and through experience and expertise we can model how both will respond to changes in service levels, prices or wherever. And no matter what scenario we feed into the sausage machine, the answer comes out as a negative number! I also have a view that once you get into frequency cutting as a method to achieve viability, you just end up chasing the patronage downwards in a vicious spiral leading to a slow painful death. Better to confront the harsh reality before you kill the market for everyone!

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    5. That I can also understand, have you any idea what the council wants to do? I'm hoping they don't decide to rely on Xelabus running the service as they don't have a great record, such as dropping the WInchester contract after just over 2 months.
      Hopefully, they will find funds to provide something, else its just gonna become another 'failure of privatised buses'. (That's not my personal opinion, I think nationalised buses would be even worse)

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  2. they will be accepting and selling solent travel cards from that date and there own weekly and monthly passes

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  3. If Velvet can't make the service pay,I'm baffled how Xelabus can. There must come a point when it is just not viable to run a service.

    Recently,Countryliner in Sussex have collapsed after winning various contracts which were actually not worth winning at the prices they bid,as they ran them at a loss.The result was the demise of Countryliner,and the council had to turn to those firms that had previously lost out,to step in and keep things going.

    Will we see this happen to Xela one day,or do they use suplus funding from their supermarket contracts to unfairly undercut more honest operators bids like Velvet? Xela services seem to change like the wind,which can't help build a customer base,or inspire confidence from passengers.

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  4. xela bus will fail you mark my words

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  5. OK, I just wanted to pass on a couple of thoughts about Xelabus.... Talking recently to one of the big bosses at one of the major operators, I was told that they are seriously worried about the growth of Xelabus. Whilst they have an old fleet, no-one can question the amazing cleanliness and image of their fleet. The supermarket contracts are their cornerstone and strength, which the big boys see as the way to attack them in the future, before they start making big inroads into core services.

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    1. Amazing cleanliness and image? Their buses look like they should be in a museum. They have chosen ugly, old fashioned colours for the buses to be painted in. And cleanliness? Clearly you haven't ever travelled on one of their buses. I had to use them when they ran the c1 on a Sunday and they are a state inside and poorly maintained. Often clunking noises like bits were about to fall off. Also Very dirty and in dire need of refurbishment. They run empty buses around all day during the week on there pointless town services causing unecessery polution. I do not understand how they fund their business at all as they certainly arent making much dough. As a Chandlers Ford local I can safely say that velvet will be missed in a big way and im very sad to see them go. Best of luck to the bosses and fantastic driving staff for the future i hope theres no redundences. We would rather have velvet running our bus. Think I will start using the train. The station is further to walk than my bus stop in Bodycoates Rd but id rather do that and i will be asking others to do the same so al they will be left with is OAPs who are free anyway

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    2. Have you been looking at Velvets buses through tinted glasses?. when you compare them to the green buses, there is no contest. The green ones are much cleaner and tidier. As regarding an old fleet of buses the velvet ones are just as old!!!!!! and the same type as Xelabuses.

      I use the purple ones daily from Chandlers ford....when they are on time...and they are certainly not the cleanest

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  6. Xelabus fund their operations by sub-contracting supermarket shoppers buses to other operators around the country under the pb bus marketing brand and then paying the operators only 40% of what they are getting paid for it and keeping the other 60% themselves. This is one of the reasons that caused the failings of shamrock buses being paid nothing for the shoppers services

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    1. Sorry, but I cannot accept your figures. No operator would be able to make a margin on 40% of the take. 90% maybe, but 40%, no way! If Xelabus were able to pull that off, their contracts would be very easy to take off of them. Anyone know how they retain them so easily? Supermarkets are not renowned for paying too much for anything...ask some of their suppliers!

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  7. Xela by no means the healthiest of companies according to Companycheck, unless 2012 has improved its balance sheet.

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  8. Perhaps someone should wise up the stores then?

    The supermarkets are obliged to provide these 'free' bus services in order to meet planning conditions for certain new stores I believe.

    What is to stop Velvet,or anyone else,contacting the stores and negotiating a contract? If Xela can run them at 40% of what they are being paid,there must be a margin to attack...and stores love tight margins,don't they?

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  9. Not a Xela fan, but not an enemy either. Been on a few of their buses on the free supermarket trips (one-way) to save a few quid on normal bus fare! Bus ok, not hot but not grot.
    Let's say Xela make £X profit from the supermarket/college work. Think, would you want to "subsidise" another route that Velvet have shown doesn't make money? No, neither would I & I'd keep my £X profit & not lose some of it running buses around C-ford at a loss. More than likely Xela are hoping that once the statutory notification period is over they can withdraw the route & cash in on some HCC/EBC subsidy money to make a profit, should the route(s) go to tender. That's not a crime!
    Could be that some journeys will be run by buses going to/from depot & supermarket/colleges & so the "dead mileage" would in fact decrease & any fare taken would be a bonus.

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  10. What's more P B S Xelabus Marketing Services limited seems to be missing from Companies House webcheck.

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  11. And i quote "It is a passion of mine to put something back into the community, but without necessaarily treading on the toes of First or Bluestar. We generally enjoy cordial relationships with our neighbours, in particular Phil Stockley at Velvet because neither company runs in competition with the other"
    (taken from an article about Xelabus in BUSES magazine June 2012)
    With all due respect Mr Blair,you are wasting your talent trying to run a bus company...... you should try writing fiction book's, you'd be in the running for the Booker prize with fantasy like that!

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  12. Maybe he has written a fiction book.... it's called a Xelabus timetable!! LOL!
    And what about Xelabus x8 that looks very similar to Brijan 8 in places?

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  13. The books open as to how long this Xelabus route lasts, 100/1 it lasts 12 months, 1000/1 Xelabus is still in business in five years time. It's run by a bunch of amateurs spending daddy's money playing buses, when the gravy train runs out they'll fold. They're not the first and won't be the last example of playing buses making a loss with someone else's money.

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  14. how do u think xela ended up with all the supermarkets anyway, daddys company is contracted by the supermarkets to provide the tenders for the services then he just tells the phil what everyone else has priced it as and goes in lower!

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    1. Dont you think that you should tell the supermarkets about this?

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  15. Or the Office of Fair Trading?

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  16. Xelabus are giving Eastleigh a Christmas Present! Less crappy buses running around.

    Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Eastleigh Bus Station and Valley Park given service number X3 effective from 25-Dec-2012.

    Not quite the surprise you'd expect from a Christmas present though, most people would've saw this happening sooner or later.

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  17. As this firm is allied to one proclaiming to be experts in bus marketing,they don't seem very good at it where their own services are concerned. Anyone care to chart their never ending short term services just for fun? I've lost track.

    I notice their routes are nearly all prefixed with an X...and that is what most become...ex-services.

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  18. not very good reports about xelabus , i feel some are unfair . you may thing its people playing buses , but has no one out there spared a thought to the bus drivers that hope the firm last. it may be a good idea if the office bosses only play with shopper buses and college runs . as eastleigh has always been know for not that money spinning routes.

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    1. I would have to ask why any driver wants to work for them? There are major operators crying out to recruit good drivers, but are having to train them from scratch, just to get the numbers needed!

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    2. Perhaps the question should be the other way round?....why are the big bus companies continually having to search for drivers and train them, when companies such as Xelabus have a waiting list for drivers wanting to work for them?

      Velvet are the same, their staff do not appear to change every five minutes, as as with Xelabus dont cancel services because of staff shortage.

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    3. Far better working conditions at a smaller operator than the bigger ones .... simples !

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    4. I doubt the big companies would want to take on many Xelabus drivers, they've done the rounds of the big companies who will no longer take them back for various reasons...

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    5. Yeah most of theire drivers are First rejects

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  19. Xelabus

    Here on Monday.

    Gone on Tuesday.

    Somewhere else on Wednesday.

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  20. I cannot believe the rudeness of some people on these blogs. Such a shame they have to go by Anonymous - clearly happy to slate someones hard work and determination yet dont have the balls to stand up and and be seen.

    In a climate such as this - how many of the above think its an easy task setting up and running a bus company ? Hats off to Velvet & Xelabus for having a go and providing an alternative for the travelling public.

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    1. Think one or two posters have skipped the point here. Regardless of what you think or a particular company, at least somebody is prepared to take on a route already noted by Mr Stockly as unviable. He has tried to maintain a service WITHOUT any funding and withdrawn from the area purely on commercial grounds. At least he tried.

      Xelabus have at least stepped in to try and continue some form of service of which I am pleased about living in Chandlers Ford. Perhaps if the funding had not been withdrawn in the first place by the county we would not be in this position.

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  21. I have read all the above posts with great interest. We are never going to be everyones cup of tea - but then again which bus company is?

    As a small inspendent family owned company - we pride ourselves in the services and vehicles we operate. We do not simply operate buses as a "hobby" as someone above has suggested. We have a great interest in what we do.

    PB bus marketing is a separate business to Xelabus. Simply handing over supermarket contracts is not an option these days under EU tendering. We take part in tendering processes like other firms do. One would question that if this was the case - why we do not operate the Hedge End M&S and Sainsburys contract - the answer is simple, we couldnt operate this at the same rate as the current operator.

    Not sure where 40% margins etc come from - IF ONLY! Supermarket contracts only make up a very small percentage of turnover for our business. Xelabus do not "sub contract" to operators allover the UK.

    We have made a number of changes in the past 2 years, but simply to see where and how our business fits in with 1) The Local community and 2) With other local operators.

    We have always worked alongside Velvet and been known in the past to help provide drivers and buses when the need has arisen. Our local service buses are very much on par with Velvets and in fact some of Bluestars buses in terms of age. Our "older" deckers are mainly used for schools and colleges although some are now specifying certain age vehicles which will see the older fleet dis-appear over the next couple of years.

    We have now entered the Solent Travelcard scheme. Our new X7 and X8 is the main reason for this. Up to now we have felt there has not been the need to do so. We have taken onboard comments and have reacted accordingly.

    I'm delighted that we now have a waiting list for drivers at Xelabus. Thats a good position to be in. Our sickness rate is very low and we provide good working conditions with our team. The drivers are always fully informed of changes taking place and we also engauge with them when making changes to services and duties. I have always worked on the basis that I wouldnt expect our drivers to do anything that I wouldnt be prepared to do myself. We were awarded the Eastleigh Nightstar buses but turned these down.

    As a small firm in this industry we have to tread carefully. We have an obligation to our employees and passengers that what we do and decide is for the benefit of everyone and for the right reasons.

    I would welcome a face to face chat with anyone that would like to know more about Xelabus so that maybe rumours and un-true facts (like most of the above I'm afraid) can be put right before being commented on.

    Many thanks all for your informative feedback!

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    1. Thanks Gareth for you're insightful reply, it can't be easy reading what by in large have been quite negative comment's about your company,
      What i would like to ask you is....... you have been quoted as saying in a magazine article that you don't like treading on the big groups toes and that you enjoy a cordial relationship with Phil at Velvet. Now it almost seem's to me that you have encroached on Velvet's network of Eastleigh town Services to the point it has now made these as Phil said in his first reply "marginal" routes unviable, he also refers to you as a competitor which doesn't sound very cordial to me....i am also lead to believe you will be introducing a route that is covered by Brijan service 8, Whilst we don't wish to have a repeat of the Beep Bus episode, would you have introduced these services or for want of a better term, undermine current services had Bluestar or First been operating the corresponding routes?
      In my opinion the only thing this gives back to the respective communities your company is serving is the uncertainty that their established bus services operated by the current/outgoing operators have any viable future at all

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    2. No doubt Gareth will answer your questions as he sees fit, but the only misconception I'd just like to correct, is the notion that competitors must have a bad relationship.

      It is possible to compete vigorously for business while still enjoying a healthy respect for your colleagues.

      Indeed one of the great strengths of the bus industry in this region is that by and large the operators do get on extremely well behind the scenes - even when the battle for passengers on the streets may be fierce.

      Initiatives such as Solent Travelcard and the Better Bus Area Fund project for free wifi, next stop displays and bus refurbishments simply wouldn't be possible without that mutual respect, because ultimately we know that we can all benefit from growing the overall market for bus travel.

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  22. The only area I feel you can be making reference to is Velmore? Velmore is good bus operating area. Is it not therefore good competition and good business sense to divert a service via Velmore providing a new link for residents to the large ASDA store in Chandlers Ford? The service did run via Nightingale Avenue, but proved not popular. We also run one bus an hour so I dont really see how we can be seen upon as "poaching" customers.

    We trialled our X8 service to Marwell Park during the summer months with Marwell support. This proved to be OK but not hugely successful on patronage. It was a mistake on our part to withdraw this service as we were bombarded with calls and letters to bring back the service. Passengers liked the low floor element, the smart and friendly drivers.

    To increase numbers we wanted to see what else could be done with the service and following passengers requests extended to Horton Heath. The service has been bought back by request of passengers.

    Now, regarding X7 - it makes no sense to me that we should take on the Velvet C service in its entirety. Former posts on this blog state that Velvet could not make this viable so I dont feel we would stand a chance either. So, to avoid Chandlers Ford and Velmore residents losing a link - we did step in with a new timetable similar to that of Velvets C service but greatly reduced. The service will run every 30 mins in the peaks and then one bus an hour during off peak. We can build on this though - but we need to judge patronage levels for ourselves before doing so. I'm not in the business to throw money at 3 or 4 buses to operate a service which simply wont pay.

    Its rather annoying however when people think we have put this on to run Velvet off the road. They couldnt be more wrong. We worked with Velvet to ensure a smooth transition took place from when the C comes off and the X7 starts.

    Again, happy to meet with anyone thats affected by our services face to face. I do feel some of the comments above are getting rather personal instead of being constructive.

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    1. "Worth mentioning also that had we continued we would have been sharing the Velmore market with three Xelabuses per hour (2 x X5, 1 x X3) whereas they have a clear road, so in that respect they do have an advantage."

      What about the x3 then Gaz?

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    2. I meant to say x5. So many pointless changes with you guys... So hard to keep up. I can only imagine how your customers feel. What I meant to say was:

      What about the new x5 then Gaz?

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  23. "Worth mentioning also that had we continued we would have been sharing the Velmore market with three Xelabuses per hour (2 x X5, 1 x X3) whereas they have a clear road, so in that respect they do have an advantage."

    What about the x3 then Gaz?

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    1. I meant to say x5. So many pointless changes with you guys... So hard to keep up. I can only imagine how your customers feel. What I meant to say was:

      What about the new x5 then Gaz?

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  24. I think it's good to hear Gareth's input to clear up some of the grey atmosphere that has been floating around with folk's view to Xelabus services. Honesty is the best policy. Thanks Gareth.

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    1. Doesn't change my view. He decided not to mention about the new x5 which is a move to steal passengers from Velvet

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  25. Hi Gareth & Phil. Apologies this is off topic but would like to know about Bus driver Jobs how do you recruit, do you offer full and part time? I guess as you don't offer driver licence schemes so could you recommend any companies that do and price? Thanks and apologies for being off topic.
    Thanks Tom

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