Wednesday 22 July 2015

First changes: Sholing shafted


First have released details of their service changes from 6th September. Here are some of the main points:


  • 5: Withdrawn, leaving Swaythling without an SCT/Citybus/First service for the first time since public transport first started in Southampton. Bassett Green is left to Unilink U2 and Swaythling has Bluestar 2, Unilink U1 and Unilink U6.
  • 9: Mon-Sat daytime frequency halved to half-hourly. Diverted to run from the City Centre via Woolston, Merry Oak and Bitterne to Sholing, keeping Sholing's link with Woolston but with a longer journey time and of course extending the journey time to the City Centre. The Sunday service is cut completely.
  • 13: Diverted to serve Peartree instead of Merry Oak. Mon-Sat daytime frequency cut to hourly. Still no Sunday service.
  • 12: Will only run between the City Centre and Lordshill. Frequency cut to half-hourly. Townhill Park and Midanbury are left with no link to Bitterne other than the Bitterne Hoppa B1 service.
  • 8: Diverted to run via Northam instead of Peartree & Woolston.
  • 1: Mon-Sat daytime frequency halved to half-hourly.
  • 10: New route that will run at a high frequency between the City Centre and Thornhill, designed to take passengers from Bluestar 18.
  • City Red routes: the 2, 3, 7 and 11 get extra buses to make them more reliable with no major route changes.


As a Swaythling boy myself, I never thought I'd see the day when Citybus's successor gave up completely on the part of the city I grew up in. First have taken a ten minute frequency to the city centre and run it down to the point where they are now left with nothing. In that time, they have also presided over the loss of Swaythling's direct bus links to Chartwell Green, Shirley, Millbrook and Totton. Luckily the university stepped in a few years ago and helps support Unilink, now run by Bluestar, which fills some of the gaps and makes sure that Swaythling is not cut off. Sadly, the same cannot be said of Harefield and the far end of Sholing, which do seem to be heading for total car dependency.


In positive news, Bluestar 1 is being boosted from every 20 minutes to every 15 minutes Mon-Sat daytimes from 1st September. Details of that and minor changes to Bluestar 5, 8, 9, 11, 12 and 18 here.

111 comments:

  1. Let`s have a mass passenger boycott of the new no.10 route,to send a message to First of us passengers absolute disgust at the latest changes and the contempt they`ve shown regular customers.

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    1. Yes,i totally agree big time!!

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    2. Fully agree !!

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    3. Go ahead and boycott the 10 - all that will happen is First reduce or cut the service and use the buses elsewhere.... and possibly not even in Southampton.

      What you forget is that if you don't use it, you lose it, then you will probably complain when the buses get sent down to Portsmouth where they would make more profit.

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    4. I think that would suit quite a lot of people given the Bluestar 18 provides a perfectly good service on the corridor. The 10 is neither wanted nor needed.

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    5. As mentioned on here already why do airlines compete on the same route ? Has anyone told Virgin Atlantic that they are neither wanted nor needed.

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    6. But Virgin Atlantic isn't mirroring BA's offering exactly is it? It's not going to be sat a few minutes in front hoovering up BA's customers at the departure gate, it hasn't dropped a load of routes to go headlong into battle with BA, it hasn't upset a load of people, isolating communities. Finally it hasn't assumed the secret of success is to buy some cheap tat once every 15 years, paint it in a shiny once during that life time, sweat the assets until they fall over and die and employ grumpy demotivated staff on skinny contracts and treat them like mushrooms behind some Perspex glass.

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    7. Well said Anon 23 July @21.25.

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    8. Anon@22.26-brilliant response to a stupid comment!

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    9. You should do your homework - BA and Virgin operate identical destinations from the same airports with flights operating to those same places departing within a few minutes of each other. You should also check the age of the aircraft used. Also worth doing your homework and checking our facts before typing ?

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    10. I can only assume Anon@0621 is from First's PR department given their increasingly irrational attempts to explain their employers bizarre actions.

      For info, Virgin Atlantic don't start competing on new routes by replicating exactly what is there already, they don't cut off communities to fund their pursuit of undoubtedly fruitless head to head competition. They start with a few journeys and organically grow the whole market by offering something distinctly different.

      First's approach is unimaginative and reckless. As a First shareholder I am appalled that they refuse to organically grow the market and think the only way to succeed is to mirror their competitor.

      As for this 'don't blame us blame the system' approach by some of their apologists, no wonder some politicians want to reregulate.

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    11. Oh dear - remarks made without any knowledge (which is a common practice on here for some). Suggest you research it a bit more. To help - Virgin Atlantic axed their domestic little red service last year which operated identical routes to other airlines. VA also axed routes to Mumbai, Cape Town, Tokyo and Vancouver last year to focus on the UK-US market. Does this ring any bells ? Fancy VA abandoning cities to focus on a market where there is plenty of supply

      If you are not happy with the FirstGroup then sell your shares - no one is forcing you to have them, are they ?

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    12. Still going on about Virgin Atlantic? Their little red service was put on as a spoiler when they thought they were going to lose the West Coast rail franchise, it certainly wasn't about redeploying trans-atlantic B747's to spoil BA's day.

      Virgin Atlantic haven't pulled off any route where there isn't a practical alternative operator unlike First who've wound down their less frequent routes to redeploy resource in this bizarre pursuit at trying to steal Bluestars slice of the market. Do you really think there is sufficient demand in Thornhill for 24 buses per hour? Over ten times as many as neighbouring estate of Sholing and over 20 times as many as Harefield?

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    13. Still going on that anyone who disagrees with the anti-First brigade must be part of their PR department?

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    14. Were the planners really drunk,when they came up with these changes?

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    15. A very weak argument in trying to defend VA decisions. I don't think VA just put on spoiler services when at the time they were losing millions per year. So it's OK for VA to withdraw routes and redeploy to a market which has ample supply but not OK for First to withdraw routes and do the same. You need to make your mind up where you sit on this ? By the way FlyBe have done the same many times as have Ryanair. Both leaving airports with no link whatsoever with a destination.

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    16. I'm not trying to defend VA's decisions. This blog isn't about VA's decision making, its about the extremely poor decisions First are making and bizarrely you're trying to justify them by comparing First to Virgin Atlantic which is just laughable.

      As the blog author says - Sholing is Shafted.

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  2. I just can't wait for Bluestar to start running a DIRECT service to the General Hospital every 7 mins calling it the 'Blue Three'. As for First returning to Thornhill (Eastpoint) well ahem, didn't they just abandon that part of Thornhill a few years ago as there was not any apparent patronage?

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  3. Funny no mention of these changes in any posts on First Hampshires Facebook page,apart from peoples posts to the page.I thought it would have been announced on there first.Perhaps those monitoring the page have gone to find a tin helmet,they will need when the mass of complaints arrive.

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    1. If you go to http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/hampshire/ and then click on "News & Initiatives", you will see that First announced there on 16 July that it was planning changes from 6 September and on 22 July it published some details of the changes. This was where I first heard of the changes.

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    2. My point was that companies tell us to join them on social media,as we will hear of changes like this first.My point was thats a load of old rubbish,in this instance anyway.

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    3. Social media may be fine for giving details of unexpected changes, such as buses delayed due to an accident or journeys missing due to a breakdown, but for extensive changes at a future date I think putting the information on the website is more sensible. Generally speaking, I am not a fan of First, but in this case I think they put the information in the right place.

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    4. They should have announced that they were making changes via a Facebook post,referring passengers to their website for more details,something they failed to do!

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  4. To be clear: First and any other operator can do what they wish. This started in 1986 under deregulation. Pointless blaming First for operating to the rules of the game. If you have an issue with deregulation then have that discussion, but it is pointless blaming an operator.

    Secondly First actually has a better product these days than Bluestar. Newer buses. Easy and good value fares; wifi and stop announcements and displays which are far more reliable than BlueStar. Far better roadside marketing on Cityred routes.

    My rumbles tell me that the Cityred network is doing well with increasing passenger numbers. So if you were in First shoes why wouldn't you want to do more Cityred on lucrative corridors like thornhill to city. It makes no odds that BlueStar or any other operator is on the corridor and on the face of it Cityred seems to be the better product on road anyway.

    Yes First are reducing other services. If those services aren't delivering a profit then that is the right thing to do. If those service are making a good return then First wouldn't reduce the frequency. Simple business economics. You might not like it but those are the facts.

    Of course any operator can step in and operate those services at any time with 56 Days notice. So if they are so lucrative as some people suggest, there should be lots of new registrations appearing to fill any gaps.

    Finally there are very few places in Great Britain where a network of services is actually a major benefit. Most towns and cities operate high frequency corridors. The days of all points to all points has long gone and the Southampton network has probably survived longer than many other town or city networks.

    Some people have suggested the changes first have made symbolise the business about to close. First or any business does not invest in lots of new kit, plus all the other extras, to then pull the plug and sell or vanish. I think you will find First are in it for the long game in markets/corridors where there is high demand and not just providing all buses to all areas.

    Personally I say good luck to First and the new Cityred service. This is just the same as Sainsburys opening up near to Morrisons etc. more choice for the customer. And don't forget any gaps not filled by other operators is the responsibility of the Local Council not any bus operator.

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    1. Thanks for that!First shareholder by any chance?If these other routes were performing that badly ,why have`nt they adjusted the frequency before ,from every 15 mins ,to say every 20 mins ,rather than every thirty mins?This outfit lurch from one disaster to another anyone remember the joke that was the X2?

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    2. I agree,obviously a fan of First and it's polocies,and as councils are now money wise cash strapped there is little hope of replacement services to some of the areas affected-The next change after this one will be no buses serving Butts Road area,Merryoak and Peartree areas and Harefield and I suspect in the end Grange Park as this change clearly indicates that First no longer wan't to serve these areas,and is a stop gap in finally killing them off-What's the point of all these high frequency services with no service at some point en route to transfer too to continue your journey-The 1 also looks as if eventually it's on it's way out-Anyhow good news for the Taxi business in Southampton-I also doubt the new 10 will achieve what they wish, as at present along the Bitterne corridor most people waiting for a bus stand back and let the 9 or 12 go by and then flag down the 18-Both the 9 and 12 during most of the day carry abysmal loads between Bitterne and City and the same i'm sure will happen with the 10-First will never get it right in Southampton,just how many tries do they have to make-I'm sure to a degree their 2-3-7 and 11 is reasonabaly successful only due to the fact of upto now there has been no challenge from any other operator-As stated the passenger numbers on the red routes seem to be increasing in their opinion, except for the 7, which most buses most of the day run around with no more than half a dozen on board,perhaps now is the time to change this situation with someone challenging the situation

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    3. I have notced in Bitterne ,most people letting Firstbuses go and waiting for Bluestar 18 instead!Perhaps the good folk of Bitterne are sending a message to First!

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    4. Yes but don't forget the 18 offers CROSS CITY and passengers are travelling to the Central Station for example. The new 10 won't offer that?

      The 18 is constantly busy albeit they run a bit close together sometimes but generally the winner here is Bluestar and I am NOT an employee.

      I wonder if the people at Wheelers or Xelabus are looking at opportunities in the city?

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    5. I doubt wether Wheeler's or Xelabus would be looking for opportunities unless some council or other person coughes up the cash to operate it-I'm sure all Bluestar will do is adjust certain fares without any other move in the alteration of the timetable whatsoever,and there is no need too.

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    6. What an excellent post 22/7/15 22:224. This is the inevitable out come of deregulation; competition on busy routes but fewer services on marginal routes.

      CityRed is a far superior product to anything Bluestar offer; the only route that comes anywhere near it is the 18 and that generally runs 2 buses together every 15 minutes rather than one every 7-8 minutes. The First fleet is newer and seemingly better looked after as well. I am a Bluestar regular buying weekly tickets but definitely will be switching to the new First 10.

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    7. An excellent opening comment obviously from someone who actually has background in the history of bus services. it is just a shame that those who have no idea how bus companies work then come and shoot you down calling you a shareholder.

      (from a Stagecoach Group Shareholder)
      (from a Tesco PLC Shareholder)
      (from a small company start-up investor)

      PS - A share was somebody investing money in FirstGroup. Regardless of who earns the share now, does taking a risk investing, not deserve a reward from the profits?

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    8. Whilst the commentator might know something about the history of the bus industry and I doubt they know much about commercial realities of business.

      For any new business venture to succeed you need a USP - Unique Selling Point. This 10 route, merely copying an existing route fails on that point. There is a reason why supermarkets differentiate themselves from their competitors in terms of products, price, location, look, feel, brand values. They don't just go and imitate what is perceived to be a successful competitor. They especially don't go and leave the back door not only unlocked but wide open for the competitor to come and take their customers unless something is seriously wrong.

      The areas First are effectively abandoning to fund this bus war with Bluestar are not some small inconsequential villages, they are large estates of what is termed 'good bus terriroty', I.e. Social housing with perhaps no more than one car in the family with people on low incomes.

      Only time will tell but I tend to agree with the author of this blog, Sholing has been well and truly shafted.

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    9. Do not agree that "The days of all points to all points has long gone". Just look to the neighboring city of Portsmouth where several routes in/out still run to a 30 min service. There's the X4, the 18 for a couple of First's but if you include Stagecoach you have the 20, the 30/31 in Hayling Island & the 37 which is hourly. They make money & in the case of 30/31 they actually got new vehicles. So it can be done if a service is nurtured. Trouble with First is the "First Gods" in the HQ want quick returns & that is not always possible. .

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    10. Absolutely right you need a USP. How about far newer vehicles, and improved reliability - bluestar 18 is dreadful for reliability and buses are 9 years old. cityred 10 doesn't have all the problems of the west side of the city to share with the east side of the city. What do the vast majority of customers want - reliability and punctuality. It's the same up and down the country. Incidently Sholing gets an improved service to Woolston for frequency.

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    11. Haha dress up the Shafting of Sholing all you want at First's PR department but it is a shafting in anyone's book. Reducing buses from 5 to 2 per hour and sending what buses remain the most illogical ill conceived route possible to town then tell people it's a good thing because their bus service to Woolston is effectively double what it was before. I hope First aren't paying you big bucks to spin this because that is carp.

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    12. Indeed Sholing does get an improved service to Woolston but by a much longer way round-However Sundays it looses it's 30 minute frequency and Weekdays it's halved-In the next timetable change after this September one it is a prime candidate for complete withdrawel, as it would seem the way it's going other areas will be in the same boat.

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    13. With so many people on this forum saying how these changes are so wrong because there must be plenty of demand first are giving away i assume there must be an array of applications for new operators licences going in to the TC as we speak. I think they call it put your money where your mouth is !

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  5. That has some valid points. I can't imagine BA and Virgin Atlantic think I won't operate route X as airline Y flies there. They compete head to head. Stop routes. Start new routes.

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    1. You don`t get that with privatised rail firms on the other hand.The bus passenger is treated far worse than rail passengers.Rail companies can only change timetables every May and December,not every five mins,like bus operators.The goverrnment need to do more to protect bus passengers.

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    2. The government is not remotely interested in bus travel unless it's London

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    3. The Mayor of London authorises substantial subsidy for London transport options to promote the city. Maybe the Mayor of Southampton would like to do the same?

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  6. Did people think it was terrible when Solent Blue Line started operating the same routes as CityBus those many years ago.

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    1. They did`nt copy Citybuses routes road by road exactly.What Solent Blue Line did do was to give faster links from Portswood to Townhill Park.Before Solent Blue Line came on the scene Forest Hills Drive in Townhill Park did`nt have a service,now it has plenty.

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    2. Solent Blue Line brought back conductors,something Southampton Citybus had abolished many years beforehand!What is First going to bring differently to the City -Bitterne-Thornhill corridor?Apart from those god damn awlful bullet proof screens between you and the driver,which i detest!I don`t go to the convenience store to pass my lottery slip through a hatch to the cashier,they are more likely to get attacked/robbed than bus drivers!

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    3. If you read the post higher up you will see that First actually has the better product on the road. Agreed about the assault screens but very few people would actually choose not to board a bus because an assault screen is in place unless you have research to prove otherwise.

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    4. It really is abundantly obvious that buses and staff will be reduced and areas of the city will miss out on a decent bus service. If Bluestar suddenly ran a high frequency service from City to Weston we would suddenly see high frequency being put in place by "City Red" First. You can see that First have attacked Bluestar on Thornhill and Millbrook, Bluestar responding with attack on Townhill Park and now First attacking Thornhill.

      I still put money on First selling up and moving their customer friendly (with bullet screens) elsewhere and good riddance.

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    5. I would rather an attack screen than the risk of someone attacking the driver on the road and the bus crashing into Shirley Precinct.

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    6. You have more chance of them crasing into each other than a member of the public attacking the driver-Attacks on bus drivers are very rare, and if someone wishes to attack them they will, screen or no screen-That's life in todays world.

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    7. Anon@18.23 someone could come crashing into Shirley precinct,cause they were playing with their mobile,whilst driving a car.If you worry about all the what if`s you`d never leave the house,get a grip!

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  7. A little note to our Moderator . . .

    Unilink, whoever runs the buses on the services, is actually run mainly for the University, which is the client. The aim is to link their various sites, including RSH and SGH, with their halls of residence. It is just a matter of convenience that the Bassett Green service, U2, terminates at the Crematorium. Officially, it goes to Bencraft, the hall of residence next door. And, of course, the University did their research properly, finding roads which Citybus - and Blue Line - didn't then serve.

    Yes, Go South Coast have the contract at present, but that may change. They took it over from what started life as an enterprise of West Sussex County Council, and they in turn took over from Citybus, who had made such an awful mess of it.

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    1. Seem to make a mess of most things they get their hands on it would seem,but not all, sometimes they score a success in what they do,but rarely

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  8. Eclipse and The Star seem to be a big success for them, also managed by the same team ?

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  9. Eclipse does not have competition except the car which can not use the busways in Gosport/Fareham. The Star isn't the dog's boll**ks - it's new buses but on the old familiar routes from Horndean/Waterlooville along a section of road that was "Zip 41" branded with HCC money several yrs ago

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  10. So The Star is on the same route as it has been for a long time. Hang on, people are saying that first change routes too often. Make up your mind folks. And so eclipse has no competition - isn't that what people on here want :-)

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  11. Daily Echo have been told of the changes,so expect a story online and in the paper pretty soon.

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  12. The "team" at First were not instrumental for Eclipse and The Star - It was HCC pumping in funds. The bus lanes and fancy bus stop flags all HCC funded between Portsdown Hill and Waterlooville and the Eclipse with huge funding from the government. So yes all good stuff but not First doing it without the authorities awarding them the work.

    First have no new visions - just replace newer buses over routes that are fighting competitors and not doing anything for the areas loosing services. Why not look at new ideas in areas that they are pulling out from and try and build back custom??

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    1. You can spot poor planning by the number of times routes have to be changed. First Southampton average this once every 8 weeks.
      It is interesting to note that under the new First, the new people going into operating companies are innovating and trying new things and making some money. The people who've been there from the Lockhead era continue in their same risk averse way expecting the council to give them lots of lovely money and managing a cycle of decline.

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  13. I'm not sure where your information is from but Eclipse and the star are both partnerships not quality contacts. So unless you were party to all the meetings and discussions I think you may have the wrong end of the stick. The value of investments in the schemes are different at the start of the scheme but over the life of the projects it would balance itself out - that's what a very well formed former manager told me. There are very few bus services in the country that suddenly start serving new areas where there is no bus at all (unless it is a new development). As mentioned before this is the game of deregulation and you play by the rules. If you don't like the rules don't play the game, but don't blame the players in the game.

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  14. Yes but effective marketing can activate new business and not simply allow areas to lose services altogether.

    So Eclipse and Star might be partnerships but they are designed by consultants not First! They might win the routes and run fancy buses but its all for effect.

    Areas like Sholing should be effectively marketed to attract custom.
    The routes could have attractive introductory fares; invest in better buses for the area and I don't mean Streetlites!

    Better infrastructure and clearer publicity at stops. Hold a customer surgery to talk to passengers about what they want??? Not rocket science.

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    1. Out of all the new buses you can buy, the Wright Streetlite is probably the worst one on the market. From a passenger perspective they are dreadful vehicles. Drivers cannot stand them either. Engines are too small for the vehicle, meaning components are continually over stressed, thus engines fail in service. Gearboxes that snatch between changes, causing the bus to jolt and probably worst of all, the car like braking which immediately stops the bus causing the vehicle to stand on its nose and throw the passengers forward. Add in the trendy leather seating beloved of some operators and you have people sliding from seats as the bus snatches gears and the driver brings the thing to a stop. The passengers assume the driver is incapable of driving a bus, when in fact its the vehicle that is at fault.
      I really do feel that those who order such dreadful rubbish should drive them for a shift or travel to work on them. They certainly wouldn't accept such rubbish when buying their own private cars!

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    2. What tosh. Seems a lot operators are buying streetlites so if it is that bad there must be lots of operators making bad decisions! Passenger feedback is actually positive about them when I was talking with someone from Yellow Buses as they are very roomy. There are some adjustments drivers need to make in order to drive them correctly. This is the case for any bus type.

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    3. Tosh? I am speaking from direct experience as a passenger and someone who works for a bus company that operates them. I know how much they are costing us to operate. I travel on them in order to get to my place of work. I cannot think of a better advert for buying yourself a car than having to regularly travel on this type of bus. Do you work for an operator that runs Streetlites? I suspect not.
      Like I said before, I'd love to see the people who make these purchasing decisions travel to and from their places of work on the vehicles they order, or drive a shift in service in one. We would soon see a substantial improvement in the quality of buses because they would not tolerate such a poor quality vehicle to travel in or drive.
      First buy Streelites because they helped to design them, but First executives don't travel on them to get to work nor do they have to drive them, their customers and staff do though!

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    4. Incorrect. I do work for an operator but we don't have streetlites. However like yourself I do travel on them to get to work each day and find them fine. Who do you work for then to give credibility to your comments ?

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    5. Thanks for correcting me. Not willing to identify where I work, like yourself. I am not local to the blog area, I live and work many miles north of it. I find this blog a very interesting way of keeping abreast of developments in an area where I once worked.

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  15. On a related subject First's charity drive, raising money for Prostate Cancer by giving away a signed Matt Le Tissier shirt doesn't seem to have done too well. Not for one moment disrespecting the cause as any donation is a positive donation, especially for such a worthy cause. But it does go some way to highlight the general lack of interest in these sort of publicity stunts that First seem to concoct. They've spent money on huge adverts in timetable cases at many bus stops, and promoted it endlessly on social media, but as of 19:30 today (one day before the end of the competition), they have raised £130. Excellent for the charity, but a terrible dent in the sort of "pulling power" that First believe they might have. It's also worth noting that their original target of £300 has been reduced to £100 on the Just Giving page. This is presumably so they can say after all of this is over that they have "smashed" their target, and what a huge success the whole endeavour was.

    Again, this is no attack on the charity, and whatever the final total will be is more than they would have raised had the whole exercise not taken place and this deserves recognition. But if First genuinely were interested in the charity, rather than the publicity stunt, then they would have agreed to match the total reached. A £5 donation to their customers is quite a substantial amount, but to First it's a drop in the ocean.

    Going back to the subject at hand, and this is perhaps the most transparent attempt to date to try and steal custom from another competitor, and to the cost of several large areas of the city. Sholing, Harefield, Townhill Park, Swaythling, Coxford and Peartree all see significant reductions in services to fund this City Red 10, which according to their Facebook page, they are "very proud" of. It couldn't be any clearer that their relatively small City Red network comprises of the only services that they actually give a monkeys about, and if you're unfortunate enough to live in an area that is not City Red territory, then I'd be quite worried about what the future holds.

    The public can moan and complain all they like about these service changes, but the reality is that all these complaints are water off a duck's back to First's management. They have their plans and they won't change. Complaining to councils and MP's won't help either, as First will just spout the usual "not financially viable" dialogue and that'll be the end of it. The only way for the public to show that they have truly had enough is to simply not use their buses anymore. In reality this is unlikely to happen though as many people have no choice but to use the bus, regardless of how inadequate the service might be. But the only way to get listened to is not to attack them, but attack their profits.

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    1. I agree with you entirely-For quite a few years now they have been changing routes in certain areas to such an extent they are now no longer viable-All they want in the end are the high rfrequency red routes and the new 10 is the last one in the chain-The other routes in the future will more or less be doomed-An example is the withdrawel of the 12 on the City to Townhill Park section which has for over a year sported a 15 minute Weekday service daytime and 30 minutes evening and Sundays a 30 minute service daytime, and hourly evening-This service is completely withdrawn as of 6th September 2015,and the reason will be as usual not financially viable-With First once the service is reduced in frequency such as the revised 1-9-12 and 13 will be, the next step is another reduction in frequency then after that the axe-I also firmly believe in time certain bits of the 8 route will be removed such as the Grange Park to Moorgreen section-The 6 may have a slightly better chance of survival-As you state the public can complain as much as they want but it will make no difference-The point we are now at has been building up for the past few years now-They state on their site they are very proud of the 10 which is strange as it's not yet turned a wheel-I would also imagine there will be no reaction from Bluestar over the new 10, except they will more than likely alter certain fares, and put on special fare offers-For those left with a bus service,Happy travelling

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    2. As previously said on this forum,everyone just boycott the no.10,when it begins and send a powerful message to First!

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    3. First have been busy spamming 'celebrities' twitter accounts to try and get them to retweet this Matt Le Tissier shirt they have to give away for a fiver for charity - not one of the celebs appears to have taken them up on their request to retweet.

      Perhaps the time should have been better spent researching what their customers want from them and this nonsense service change.

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    4. Totally unsurprising that nobody has bothered retweeting. Celebrities get thousands of these sort of requests every day. If they spent their time retweeting all of them, their accounts would be just a massive advertising forum. Sending requests begging for retweets is genuinely pathetic behaviour from a national company like First.

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  16. Correct - First like all operators have to make a profit. The plc groups demand far higher profit margins than privately owned businesses. As said many times by other people the changes to bus networks are as a result of deregulation. If you want higher frequencies on services then you need to regulate which in turn will cost more money for the tax payer and then you will have a situation where everyone pays for the bus network as opposed to just the users of the bus network. Don't forget the profits in the Isle of Wight helps to subsidise the bluestar operation. I am sure Islanders would not be happy to know this. Of course now GSC is a limited company for all GSC operations you will never be able to see this effect.

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  17. There does seem to be a lot of First bashing in this thread, which is quite rightful, if it is coming from those that live in the communities which are becoming cut off. However First are a business and do need to compete commercially. It can be argued it may be cheaper to copy an idea of a competitor, than develop your own, or it may be wise business sense, especially if you have the chance of doing it better, i.e. with newer buses and some investment in the service. My trouble with this is the rate that First chop and change their minds about the routes they are operating and the frequency, its only been a few months since the 13 was cut back from Thornhill because of lack of demand. In 12 - 18 months time I can see the 9 being routed back to its present route, offering new more direct connections to Sholing, because it is more reliable and offer faster journey times, I guess only time will tell. The one thing I am little disappointed in is at the moment there is a pollution study going on in Southampton, and surely these cuts will only go at increasing pollution in the city, I do think the council need to look and see what is important, to help reduce the appeals of cars, spending money on new timetables which no one can read along with new bus stops, or sitting down with the city operators and coming up with a sustainable transport plan, looking to get people out of their cars an onto pubic transport, instead of letting the city operators focus on fighting on one route, leaving no alternative but cars, perhaps the tender model is the way forward.

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  18. Bluestar seems to have its share of numpties as well!Who the heck decided it was a good move erecting a bus stop half way down Mousehole Lane,Almost at the top of Witts hill and on a bend in Meggesson Ave,but ommited any stops between the bottom of Cobden Ave and Bitterne Park triangle,on Bluestar 16?

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    1. Yes-Once upon a time there was a stop by the junction of Midanbury Lane and Cobden Avenue which was well used-For some reason when Bluestar started their 16 this stop was never put back and so now we have a ridiculous long gap between Neva Road and the junction of Cobden Avenue/St Catherines Road inward and Cobden Avenue/Cobbett Road and Neva Road outward-Obviously designed by no one with any past history of where the stops were previously-May I also state that the statement by First that there are not enough passengers a day between Midanbury/Bitterne Shops to retain a service is complete and utter nonsense-The busy part of the present 12 daytime is between these points,so in withdrawing completely there is something drastically wrong with their figures-I might add the withdrawel in the evenings after 1900 would be correct as little or no traffic at this time

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    2. The complete withdrawel of the direct service between Bitterne and Midanbury/Townhill Park daytime, is one of the craziest decissions, out of many other past bad decissions by first, I have seen. Also to leave Harefield with just one bus per hour beggars belief

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    3. Agreed. The Townhill Park/Midanbury to Bitterne route has always seen no less than a 20 minute frequency during the daytime, and so too has Harefield. It's obviously been worthwhile enough for all these years to operate this sort of level of service with no real change, and now suddenly they're making that much of a loss that it justifies the complete withdrawal of one service, and a drastic reduction in the level of another? The excuse of "financial viability" is extremely hard to accept on this occasion. Moreover, they should be honest and call it a "reallocation of resources to try and increase profits". I bet they don't though.

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    4. If Bluestar had any input they should revise their 16 to operate the present route as now to Midanbury then Woodmill Lane-Forest hills Drive-Megesson Avenue-Wakefield Road-Cornwall Road-Litchfield Road back to Midanbury then Witts Hill,Mousehole Lane-West End Road to Bitterne then Peartree to Woolston back over Itchen Bridge to City-This would give Midanbury a sensible two way route to Bitterne-Most in Midanbury then could get to/From Townhill Park in a shorter time-If it ran 30 minute frequency in each direction,because of similar running time between City and Witts Hill it would between the two directions be a 15 minute service in and out of City for Witts Hill.Midanbury and Townhill Park residents-Number one way 16 and the other 17-The present 15 minute frequency down to 30 minutes over the City to Witts Hill section,would hardly be noticed as at present they are not exactly well loaded during the day-There are far more passengers to be gained with little or no competition after the First changes between Townhill and Woolston at least-When some years ago Woolston was connected to Townhill Park the traffic was good,that is until First planners came along and wrecked it-They now are going to kill the rest of it off that being the Bitterne to Townhill Park section-They seem to spend more time wrecking things than improving them, except if your are fortunate enough to live on or near one of their beloved red routes-To state daytime their is poor traffic at present between Townhill and Bitterne is sheer nonsense,however that statement will be correct after the 6th September 2015 when of course there will be none

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    5. Perhaps Xelabus will fill the void!

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  19. Well that would make sense if increased profits were likely to occur, but I can't see how they will do. All they are going to do is cause a massive bus war in Thornhill, much like they currently have in Millbrook. Whatever they may claim, I cannot see how the 2 can be making them any money at the moment with the current number of buses and level of fares on the route, and I don't expect the 10 will be any different.

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  20. Here's a novel thought. Who are the only people who know how much profit each First route in Southapton makes? Who are the only people who know where the majority of passengers travel between? Answer = First. You may not like their plans, but they are the only ones armed with all of the data.

    Their are lots of 'anonymous' comments from people who seem to think they know better, but without having the actual hard data. As a commercial company I'm sure they wouldn't be running the 2 if it wasn't making any money! I would suggest to all of the 'anonymous' experts above that they apply for a job as a network planner to put their ideas into action.

    And before anybody suggests, I don't work for First and I don't work in the bus industry. I'm just a normal bus user who lives in Shirley!

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    1. Well I do work in the bus industry (not in this area), and can assure you that operators do not only run routes that are making money. When locked in an intense bus war with another operator, all common sense can go out of the window!

      Obviously they will be hoping it will pay off in the long term, if or when they "win" the war. But up and down the country First's record of winning bus wars is not good!

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    2. Perhaps if Badgerman lived Midanbury and travelled to/from Bitterne He would revise His opinion about the amount of people who travel-We don't need hard data we see what's happening when we travel-I also don't work for any bus company either-It's also very difficult to imagine that First make lots of money out of their 2-7 or 11 as in what I observe as a regular traveller to Shirley,Portswood and to a lesser extent Woolston you never see more than about 6 people on board most journeys that pass,but to be fair the 2 sometimes fairs much better-It's clear First have made their minds up to put all their resources into their red routes at the expense of other routes and that's what Southampton folk will have to put up with-As in the lyrics of an old song "These boots were made for walking and I'm going to tread all over you"

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  21. The question I have is the 12 when originally introduced 2 years ago was every 20 minutes, then last July was increased to every 15 minutes due to its success. At the same time it was re-routed from Woolston to via Northam to make it the quicker route into town. Yet here we are a year later with the service now being reduced down to every 30 minutes to the west of the city and withdrawn altogether from the east. Something really does not add up here, what has changed in that time? Bluestar have increased the 16 to every 15 minutes and held a consultation with residents of Townhill, of how to meet their needs, but very little of the two routes overlap, and if anything I would expect that to hit the 7 instead of the 12. Something tells me that these 'un-profitable' routes may have been sacrificed to try and drive people onto city reds, thus making them profitable.

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    1. As you can see it;s been such a success it's being withdrawn-Who on earth would withdrwaw a service that has been a success,,and might I add First have stated this on their website over the past year when commentators have made some criticism about it that it is a success-Just shows the idiots who are in charge of First,well in some departments at least

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  22. Think you`ll find the no.12 is axed for the same reason as the no.9 is re-routed between Bitterne and City.It is because the no.10 will run every 7/8 mins ,just like no`s 9 and 12 do together now.So when First say theres not enough demand,what they mean is demand for a 15 min service on top of the no.10 and the re-routed no.8,along the Bitterne to City corridor.

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  23. The last time i got a period pass on First Southampton ,the driver made a really grumpy comment cause i brought my ticket on the bus at 5pm!Since then i have used Bluestar and found their drivers much friendlier and a much better service all round!Would i use First`s new no.10?Hell no!!

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  24. The cuts are being covered by the Southern Daily Echo today!

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    1. That should be interesting to see public reaction after reading the article-Let's hope with managers online event soon to take place it's people who ask the questions who actually use the service and not overloaded with bus enthusiasts who are only concerned with what vehicles or colour bus will be on what route, and have no interest in the cuts-There are as always exceptions to my last comments of course.

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    2. Yes I agree.It's to be held tomorrow Tuesday 28th July between 1700 and 1900 hours, and should be interesting to note the management excuses this time for such a major change, and note wether it's an improvement on the excuses they gave the last time,to the excuses they gave the time before that one.

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  25. Do you really think the world is static. Get a life. Economics are changing all the time hence why the viability of routes change. Perhaps First should run the same network they did in 1985.

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    1. Strange they don't seem to change so often with other local operators-You obviously don't believe in a reasonabaly stable network of services, and think it's quite acceptable to keep rerouting services,I certainly accept change if it's for the better and in a lot of cases this change is most certainly not-I also accept bus companies under current legistration have to be profitable,but I don't believe at the expense of others-Any of the routes they will be cutting,if suddenly there was another operator to come in and run them,then suddenly they would in some instances fight back and put back on again,even though they have stated they are not viable-You are correct that travelling habbits do change,but they don't change in my observation to the degree that First keep rerouting-Many unhappy present travellers will there be after this change except if you live on Thornhill which of course you will have noticed at present has a very poor bus service-However no change affects me to any degree, so why should I actually be concerned at the change-Just use the car more often which i'm sure others will do as well-It's a sad day when what was a public transport system,has now to be a profitable organisation instead of a transport system for all-As you state we must change with the times and I have certainly done so in investing in a car

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    2. If you don't accept that bus companies should be profitable at the expense of other operators then in effect you are endorsing regulation.

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    3. Quite so,far better than the current madness-I bet if you had a good business you would not like someone to come along and destroy it for you

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    4. As a consumer far from it. I want competition otherwise I would be paying too higher price and the quality would not be top end. If it wasn't for Freddie Laker and/or Virgin Atlantic the price to fly over the pond would be astronomical

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    5. The difference between Laker/VA and First bus is the former didn't operate in an industry many politicians were eager to re-regulate.
      With this change First has scored a massive own goal, chopping more marginal areas to feed their desire for a pathetic bus war on a corridor already well served.
      No one has yet explained why Thornhill requires 24 buses an hour whilst neighbouring estates justify just 1 or 2. Or think of it another way, why is 16 buses an hour not good enough?
      Regulation here we come and based on First's recent decisions it cannot come soon enough.

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    6. I don't note that the quality at present is top end in lot's of industries-In most travel compared with the continent the price is pretty high even with competition-As an example even with competition at present the short bus ride return ticket by one of the operators between Bullar Road and Bitterne is £5.80 for two adults-Competition does not seem to have affected this fare or any others in the area,and for about a half mile journey is pretty steep-Although Virgin in particular have for the moment been successful many others have failed, and there is nothing in the future to say Virgin won't-Take Woolworth for an example who would have ever thought they would no longer be with us-That's why so many business go under nowadays due to intense competition and all you are left with is a big group company running it all in the end-Even with food purchases that have a brand name on them,if you look at the small print they are part of a large group-Mind you there are situations where competition would be handy,such as on the ferry between here and The Isle of Wight, which from all entry points it has in the past been quoted as the most expensive ferry crossing anywhere in the world-

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  26. Of course we can all have regulation but that does mean that everyone pays for it including those who don't use the bus. All very communist.

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    1. There are lots of examples where we all pay for the service provided by taxation,that some of us never use-Would you call that very communist.

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    2. So Boris is a communist?! After all he runs the largest regulated bus network in the UK and one of the largest in Europe.

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    3. Yes and look at the subsidy it costs tax payers of London to do it.

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    4. Boris is a Commie???!!! Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! You've seriously lost the plot.
      Presumably you think Osborne and Cameron are also Commie's as they have just made it easier to regulate bus services. Southampton will be pretty close to the top of the queue for the new powers after the latest service changes from this shower.

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    5. You clearly have no idea - another arm chair bus operator ! Show me the legislation that allows regulation to be introduced quickly ?

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    6. Where did I say it could happen quickly? I said "easier", that doesn't mean quickly. Its recently been published that Cornwall could have a franchised bus network in a few short years.

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    7. Then tell me the legislation that will allow it to happen ? It hasn't even been written I think you will find !

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  27. It should be interesting this afternoon on the First managers online event, to know why they see it neccessary to increase the frequency to Thornhill by introducing a new service 10, which will run the same route more or lass as the present Bluestar 18,when at present Thornhill has more than enough buses to/from City via Woolston or Bitterne as it is-It would for some very strange reason seem that overnight Butts Road,Merryoak,Itchen,Peartree and Harefield don't need buses anymore,so the frequencies are being slashed or nothing at all,where upto this moment in time, apart from Sundays they enjoy a reasonable service to/from City-Surely if these routes performed so bad they should have been attended too some considerable time ago, as they have changed the routes and timetables enough times over the past few years.Others in the Bitterne are that suffer are those who work in the shops, who use the services to/from work,Many I know live in Midanbury/Townhill Park area who will be cut off and have to find alternatives to get to//from Bitterne-If for instance you live by Witts Hill apart from a few journeys on B2, it will be quicker to walk, rather than working out how to get there by bus,that's of course should you be fit and able enough to do so-I fully am aware that todays bus services have to be commercially viable,but some of these cuts beggar belief,and it would seem to me that First are ploughing in all their resources,just to attack the Bluestar 18 at the detroment to other bus users-The fact alone that Harefield will only have an hourly bus service to/from City,I think is a very bitter pill for the present resident

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  28. Rather than always guessing,why not undertake some serious market research about where people live and where they want to go? Endless network and route changes just damage patronage. Passengers generally like stability. Uni-link was founded because the university was told by Citybus there was no market in carrying students around the city. They then established a network,originally operated by Citybus but so awfully that they were dumped, which generated 3 million journeys pa from a zero start up to the GA contract win.

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  29. Well the FarceBus Twit the Manager was a predictable waste of time. People asking for details of the service changes were told the timetables were yet to be finalised - what the heck have they registered with the Traffic Commissioner then! The left hand has well and truly stopped talking to the right hand at Empress Road.

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  30. If they are registered as high frequency then you can finalise your 10 mins or better frequency on the day if you wish

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  31. Yes the face the managers session was as usual the predictable waste of time,with the usual answers from the management to the sensible questions, and as usual the predictable bus enthusiasts(not all might I add), asking all sorts of ridiculous questions which are of no importance in relation to the change-All very sad really

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    1. What did you expect?They are there to squeeze as much profit as possible from Southampton,for their shareholders!Customers and needs of residents of Southampton come way down the list of priorities!If you want a half decent service for Southampton,then Nationalisation is the only answer!

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  32. The sooner this useless bunch sell up to Stagecoach,Arriva etc the better!I can`t believe anyone could do a worse job of wrecking Southamptons bus network,but who knows.

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  33. Well, this topic has generated a lot of discussion! I accept that at least some of it is bickering between contributors but, in the two years or so since my attention was drawn to this site, I don't recall a topic which has generated so much comment.

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